ATA Teachers Oct 23

The Alberta government will table back-to-work legislation on Monday that seeks to end the province-wide teachers’ strike. Bill 2, known as the Back to School Act, was announced today via an order paper published on the Alberta Legislature’s website.
Brian is joined by local ATA presidents Mike Jerred and Deanna Burzminski to discuss how the ongoing teachers strike is affecting Medicine Hat teachers and students.

Transcript

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Teachers do an awesome job of, I guess, fixing, you know, holes in the system or sort of rising to the moment to make sure that the kids in their class, do get support. But it's to the point now where teachers know that they're not actually providing good level of support to all their students all the time. That hurts hearts. This episode of Bring Back the Porch, brought to you by Bernie Leahy, River Street Realty. Let's get you home. And joining me on the porch this morning, and it is the morning of October 23rd. And I only say that because the Alberta legislature is reconvening today. And one of the important things that they'll be looking at is the current labor dispute in Alberta among the teachers. And joining me is the ATA local number one president for Medicine Hat Mike Jerred. And from the ATA number 39 the Catholic Board of Education, Deanna Burzminski. Welcome. Thank you. I'm pretty sure you'd rather not be here. You'd rather be in the classroom? Yeah, with the kids for sure. Yeah. So how did we get to where we are now? Three weeks into a strike, almost. Want to take that one? Well, I think that, if we look like historically what has happened, over more than a decade, we've seen that the chronic underfunding which we saw should have been corrected along the way. And as things have deteriorated to the levels that we're at right now. I think that, that put us in a position that, if we didn't take any kind of, labor action, that things weren't going to be changing at all. So I think that a lot of us thought that it wouldn't get to this point. We prayed that it wouldn't get to this point, but certainly it did. What is the biggest issue we've seen? A lot of, back and forth in, in the media regarding advertising. The government's presenting inside the is is this side is classroom size. The big issue is that the deal breaker. Classroom size and classroom complexity, they certainly go hand in hand because class sizes without complexity, you know, the system can handle. But when you start to add those, those higher need students into the mix, it changes the dynamics of the classroom. Also. Just the ability for teachers to respond to their students in a proper way. I mean, teachers do an awesome job of, I guess, fixing, you know, holes in the system or sort of rising to the moment to make sure that the kids in their class, do get support, but it's to the point now where teachers know that they're not actually providing good level of support to all their students all the time. That hurts hearts. And ultimately, it shouldn't be that way. Like we should because of the state of our province and the resources. If we took a different stance with public education and said we, we'd like to return to the best system in the world, we were just there. We know things would change. I mean, one of the most striking things that that I've seen over the course of this campaign is that when we compare our classroom numbers to national averages or to some of the best funded systems in the country, the difference in overall teaching staff is fairly staggering. Right. And I don't like it's it's actually quite shocking to see that difference. So we have less teachers teaching more students in Alberta than compared to other provinces. Correct. Okay. What kind of a strain does that put on a teacher on a day to day basis when you're facing a classroom? I don't know what the I don't know what the numbers are here in Madison that. But when you have a a large group of students like that and you know that you've got to put your finger in this hole over here. And then this morning you're like the little boy trying to stop the water, hold the water back here. It must be deflating after a while. I feel like, if I look at how things have kind of evolved with, moving towards more inclusive education, where, in the past I would have had, ideas or educational assistance that were sitting with certain students that had higher needs. Those are few and far between. So we have fewer ideas that are trying to manage kids with more complex, behaviors. And sometimes, what's happening is that they're trying to cluster groups together, and it's not necessarily effective. But yet my class size potentially could be at 30 or 32, and I could have 6 to 7 kids that have individual, program plans that are in place and no E in the classroom. And then we have kids as well that could be English as a second language. So if you actually even though our classes at, my high school are around 83 minutes long, if you were trying to do the math after I taught a lesson, how much time could I spend actually working with any of the kids? It's minuscule. Okay, what are the class sizes like? I'm sure there's probably a difference between the public and the Catholic board. We know the numbers are high in Calgary and Edmonton because of the pressures on population growth. What about here in Medicine Hat? So Medicine Hat and I, I mean, I attend, our, our annual, budget, review with, with the public school board. And so because the, the funds aren't really changing every year there's 3 or 4 full time teachers that basically come off the board and then that generally gets distributed throughout the system. And so class sizes have been increasing. I think we feel the, the weight of the three year rolling average, we don't have a population spike like Calgary and Edmonton corridor. But the lowest, per pupil funding manifests itself differently all over the province and by even within our city at different schools. So k through six looks different than a junior high. Looks different than the high school. Are the needs different at the different levels, too? Absolutely. So for, say an elementary school, what would be the optimal size? Well, that would probably be in the class caps that we just presented in our offer back to the government. I mean, Diane and I are both high school teachers. We recognize the value in that. You know, focusing on early learning and that K through six, if they can actually get some literature literacy supports and exit their elementary years. We know in high school and junior high that they're going to be far better off staying within the system and having success. And so I think that those early years are tremendously important. And, you know, to cap those class sizes for the little ones, so they can have the teachers attention that I just think it's incredibly value and difficult to argue against. It's like anything else, you have to start with a good foundation. And what we have found as well as that, where, we've lost teachers. So there's been, like an attrition rate. So we're having retired teachers not being replaced and that maybe at, the elementary schools and then suddenly, even maybe the class sizes weren't large, but then there combining classes. So now you have A23 split, but then also with very, like a spectrum of kids with needs. And again, no supports are very few supports in the classrooms for the educational assistance. And it's creating, like a, situation where no one is benefiting in the classroom. So, no kids need to need to be met. How many, classes do we have that are split where you see a teacher covering two grades? So certainly, like, in our division, well, we have a smaller, sized schools, like, smaller, like, footprint of schools. So we found that, that potentially depending on which side of town we're looking at, how even the population of Medicine Hat is, more on the south side of town as opposed to the north side. So we've seen more split classes on this side of the river. So it wouldn't be uncommon to have 2 or 3 within one of the, one of our smaller schools, which again, I own children had to, be in a split class at Saint Francis, and that was not optimal. Michael, you mentioned that, you had presented, an offer to the government, with cap sizes on classrooms. And the government has said we're not going to talk about that. So there's, you're diametrically opposed there. So how do we get past that? Well, that's a good question. I mean, like Deanna said, we didn't want to get to this point. I mean, our the path we're on right now is probably the least preferable of all. I, I believe we have public support. And so what we actually need is for the public, to make sure that their MLAs understand that, that they believe it's reasonable that our, our class caps, our proposal to the government was a k through 12 proposal. Just like when you sell a house, you would start with your, your highest selling price, and you expect the other party to come back and negotiate. That's not happening. I would suspect that if the government came back and said, we can't fix the system overnight because it has taken, you know, ten, 15 years to get here. But we will address, let's say, K through six that that would be, teachers would see that as a positive. They would see the intent. And we take that into consideration when we're being asked to have a look at these proposals from the government. It is unfortunate they're not willing to talk about it. I mean, every just about every other province in Canada has class sizes in their collective agreements. And so it's not unprecedented in any way. And realistically, like I said, I think those those K through six, those little guys, they deserve that type of protection. Without it, we do run into scenarios. Where you have those joint classes or split classes and that's just a numbers game. It's because they have to keep the number of students high, based on the lack of funding and can't make decisions about maybe having a class of, say, 16 or 17, grade ones and just keep them. Great. One they have to top up, split that class. You mentioned public support. Do you think that it is in your favor? I do, I mean, we have recent statistics that we were, given just last week. That tells us that we've got, depending on who's asked. But, people generally believe that the teachers in their communities are telling them the truth about the classroom conditions. We have North of 60% public support according to the polls. And so, yeah, we do believe we have public support. It just seems like it's falling on deaf ears. And I think one of the, stats that came out of that polling was that, when parents were asked or when the respondents were asked about class sizes, what they were actually saying they thought would be reasonable class sizes was actually in line with where we were hoping to get as a progression over the next few years, because I feel that oftentimes, Danielle Smith will address it and, say, well, we can't do everything now. And that isn't saying that it needs to be now. There is a progressive plan to have more realistic, classroom conditions, but, there's just an unwillingness on their part to come back to the table. That's the thing. How do you negotiate when you know that the other side has the hammer? They can just bring it down back to work. There you go. We're done talking. And it's not really a negotiation. No it's not. So what do we do? How how does the MTA fight that? How do you know? The people that are watching is that they support you? How do they get involved in the battle? Well, we would say contact your MLA, right? I mean, it is now in the political arena. And so they require political pressure to make, any changes to their decision making. And it's just tremendously important that folks step up. Now, I'm, I believe this is an assault on public education. I don't think this is just a negotiation any longer. There's some ideology at play here. And and, yeah, our premier was is on record and has written an editorial that she believes is the better way to go would be to fund, charter and private schools. And I think we're just seeing the beginning of that. Okay. As I sit and watch, the Blue Jays in the playoffs, I see lots of ads from the government of Alberta talking about how much money they're offered, how much the class sizes, the teachers, the new schools. And, you know, somebody just looking at that would go, that sounds reasonable. Well I'm sure there's the devil's in the details. Well the new schools are not part of our agreement. I mean it's part of Education Alberta to actually, you know, build these buildings, capitalize them and kind of match our population, recognizing that there's challenges there. The 3000 teachers, it does sound like a good number. It is a thousand teachers a year. There's well over 2000 schools in Alberta. And so when you start doing the math to actually think about what that would mean for folks in medicine, how do we we don't expect to see any of those teachers or those ideas. They would be largely focused on that Calgary Red Deer Edmonton corridor. And so in terms of what's best for children, students and teachers in Medicine Hat in smaller communities, we just need really an increase in base funding. And those class caps would allow for protection and also force the government to fund the education system. Better strike in Alberta last time. But teachers was 2002, if I'm remembering correctly, and I believe there was a report done after that to see what the status of the education system is in Alberta. And I think that that's something that might be looked at here as this, resolves itself to if they were to sit down and look at it, what would they find? From a third party view. From the result of the 2000. And two. Not well, if they did the same exercise, if they looked at the funding, if they looked at the class sizes, not listening to either the RTA or the government, a third party independent review, what do you think they would find? Well, interestingly enough, the, the government stopped having us report to class sizes. Was it just after Covid or prior to Covid 19? So if you don't collect the data, then you have nothing to compare it to. So like when we look at, the increase of funding that's going to private and charter schools were the highest of, all the provinces in Canada for the funding to private and charter schools, but then the lowest funded for public schools. And then now there's no data to suggest that our class sizes are changing, because they stopped collecting the data. So the reporting isn't done. So it'd be interesting. It's not that we don't have the data, like, we do know how many kids we have within the classroom, but it would, certainly not show. Well, that if you think between 2000 and 2 and where we are now, you would hope that there would have been improvement. But we've seen just, continual deterioration like, less funding and, to the point that we are where we are today. I got to play the devil's advocate here for a minute. There would be those, and you've probably seen it on social media and say teachers are well paid. What are they complaining about? Because I see that number on the AD $117,000 a year. Well, that sounds wonderful. And I get two weeks or two months off in the summer and every holiday. And where do I sign up. If I don't make that? I have been teaching for 32 years, and I wouldn't have stayed in this profession if I didn't love it. So what I do know is that we have a scale, and it's based on your years of education and the new years of, service within the classroom. And yes, there is an incremental increase up to year ten. But if you were to ask me where my wage has gone since 2011, I could tell you that it hasn't gone up and that, if you're thinking about, again, everything from inflation, and things like that, it hasn't kept pace. So, looking at, the fact that most teachers probably have 5 to 6 years of university education, I feel, and that we are continually doing, professional development, oftentimes at our own, out of our own pockets. I don't feel it's the compensation has kept up with what we've been expected to do. Did we learn anything from what happened in Saskatchewan last year where there was, strike rotating strikes? The class size issue was one of the things that was big over there. They eventually did come to an agreement. Are we taking or can we take anything from what happened in Saskatchewan or apply in Alberta? I think we can. I mean, certainly we kept an eye on what was happening over there. I'm not 100% sure of how they closed off their negotiation, but my understanding is that they, when they did go to arbitration, that is when the class size, discussion actually was brought back into their contract discussions. And so that's positive. I mean, we don't know which path we're on today, but it is possible that an arbitrator, given the opportunity and, and not, have the government sort of fence off the discussion in a way where we can't address class size and complexity. It would be interesting to have another party look at that and say, actually, this is a reasonable ask at the negotiating table, and they would potentially bring it back into, the collective. Do you see this moving towards mediation or arbitration? Do you wanna. It's a $64 question, I know, but I think right now there's such an unwillingness. Again, I think when you look at how the government is treating us within, with their ad campaigns, it's targeted and it tells one side of the story and we can do Daniel Smith's style math and try to say that this is what class sizes look like. But we all know that, you know, when you, if you misrepresent numbers enough time and you put it out in the public, then the public starts to believe what they hear repetitively. And and I feel that, where we are, we've been continually willing to come to the table and talk about things and come up with a reasonable progression of how to, deal with everything from, teacher student ratios in the classroom and, and, wages. I feel that, the government has, it's been done in vain because if if they can't come, if no one can meet at the table and actually have a discussion because nothing, from the funding point from the government is going to change to address that. And then it's just an exercise in futility. So I feel that, it'll be interesting to see what happens on, on, Monday. Yeah. That's when potential back to work legislation would be, introduced in Edmonton, probably take a couple of days to get through the machinery. And, maybe the students are back in school the first Monday in November. As a student. One of the. Timelines. Yeah, one of the timelines. And then the RTA has a decision to make, a tough decision to make. Do you abide by the legislation or do you fight it? And how do you fight it? Well, I think we would have to fight it. We'd have to fight it legally. You know, one of the options is, you know, ignoring that back to work legislation and and still staying off on strike, I don't I'll tell you right now, the teachers don't have that in them. We're not law breakers by nature. And so that that's just not a possibility. So, yeah, unfortunately, we we are heading for that legislative piece. I think the government's indicated now that we're they have no intention of returning to the table. And so that is the path. Ron, that has a number of different, ways that they can look at in terms of, forced arbitration and forced arbitration with senses. They can they can, forego any arbitration, basically legislate us back to work in law. None of these are ideal scenarios, because should have been a negotiation. I don't believe that the government has ever negotiated with us in good faith. Now that I look back at the history of this exercise that's been going on for well over a year. The other third party in this that we haven't talked about are two students. Have you had any idea of how this is impacting them? I teach, grade 12 diploma exam course and I care a lot about my kids. So it's. Yeah, well, it's hard to be on on this side of the table because I don't think any of us would choose to do this. No, the university preparation, the diploma examinations that we hear that, some deadlines for early applications have already passed. I'm thinking of of, post-secondary education institution, and I'm not getting any applications. I will simply just move the deadline. Do we know that that can happen? Is that possible for these kids who have already missed the deadline? I think that when it comes to post-secondary, they certainly have different ways that they can deal with what's what's going to happen with, with our students. And I know that, one of the concerns for sure is kids thinking that they're going to come back after having a month of no learning and then thinking about diploma exams, because those home exams, even though they're less than they used to be, if that's 30% of your mark and you're competing against provinces where kids haven't had labor disruptions, who's getting the placements in our universities? So it's it's huge. And I'm a parent. And, any time away from the classroom, is not good for the kids. But then at some point, you have to realize that if we can't even provide the supports for our kids when we're in the classroom because our class sizes are so complex and the numbers are so large, then at some point we have to fight for that. And that's what we're doing. Yeah. Unfortunate part is that the kids are caught in the middle. Yeah. Anything else that you wanted to talk about before we say goodbye? Just you know, we, we've had a number of walks here in the city this week and it's been quite healthy to have folks honk at us when we're walking through the streets, feeling that public support. It's, it's awesome. Because this is a strange time. I mean, there's teachers getting up every morning and with the intention of doing great things with their students. No one goes to work, you know, trying to, have a bad day or without their students best intentions in mind. So this is a really a natural place to be. And we really appreciated the public support and hope we can, rely on it as we go to this next week to two weeks, in negotiation or lack thereof, with this government. I'm just wondering too, if we still had local negotiations, if you were able to sit down with the Catholic Board of Education and you were able to sit down with the medicine, that school District 76, would we have an agreement? It all depends on on who's, sitting across the table from you. So you can have successful years unless successful years. I think, your local has had quite a few successful years. And I don't think that's why you're number one, but I think you were number one for a while. But, But but I also think, too, is that, one of the things, about, like, unifying the grid, there are good things to having central table bargaining because there are certain things that shouldn't have to be negotiated by every local all the time. But, yeah, I don't it'll be interesting to see what happens after this because, there is still a place for local bargaining, but I feel like there's fewer things for us that are left to be able to be negotiated. Used to be when the boards have the power to set the tax rate for your own divisions. So they knew how much money they had and everybody knew how much money there was. Now that it is under the provincial control, things are different. But as I always say here, it there's only one taxpayer, so it doesn't matter which pocket it comes out of. It's still coming out of my pocket. But it is, a difficult time for everybody. Number two right now. And, we'll see how things play out over the next little while. Mike Jerred , Deanna Burzminski thanks for your time. Thank you very much. Thank you.