Enrollment Challenges In Medicine Hat School District with Catherine Wilson

The conversation on the Porch is about the challenges faced by the Medicine Hat Public School Board regarding potential school closures due to declining enrollment. Chair Catherine Wilson sits down with Brian Konrad to discuss the emotional and logistical complexities of these decisions, emphasizing the need for careful consideration of community impact and the future of school infrastructure.

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Found it was really important because we never know how an election is going to turn out. And it is a good thing that we did wait, because we have three new trustees that have joined our board, and so we've had to dive into the research and and go through the information for them. And so because of the February deadline of attendance and figuring out kids and how many children will be in our school, we we need to make a decision before them. This episode of Bring Back the Porch, brought to you by Bernie Leahy, River Street Realty. Let's get you home. And joining me for a second appearance here on Bring Back to Porch is the chair of the medicine at public school board, Catherine Wilson. Welcome. Thank you. We are here today to talk about a very difficult process that the new board is having to tackle almost right out of the starting gate. Webster new block and the South U community School. Possible closures. How did we get to where we are today? So we looked at this. I'll answer a few questions, actually, because I think there's a lot of uncertainty about why we're doing this so soon. So let's just put that out there. We actually we're looking at this for the last few years. The previous board. We didn't know that this was going to come back for a discussion piece in January, but we felt with new trustees that could possibly be on the board that this was definitely something that we had to wait to look at so that the ones that are on the board for the next few years are the ones making the hard decision. I found it was really important because we never know how an election is going to turn out. And it is a good thing that we did wait because we have three new trustees that have joined our board. And so we've had to dive into the research and and go through the information for them. And so because of the February deadline, attendance and figuring out kids and how many children will be in our school. We we need to make a decision before then. And you referred to it as a hard decision. And I certainly is, because behind all the numbers on the spreadsheets, you have to remember there are people involved. That's right. You know, I said the other day, as a school board trustee, we're fiscally responsible for government resources, money, decisions. But we are also responsible to parents, family, community and that is definitely where this hurts, because it is definitely going to make many people sad. If we choose one way, and it will make many people sad if we choose another way, we it's like a no win. This is a no win situation for us. And it's enrollment is the big number that is pushing all of this. So originally, it would have been, I'm going to say three years ago, four years ago, we looked at reconfiguring grade configurations at the two schools. So we were looking in, Roy Wilson, George Davison, and then we were looking at Webster Massey. And the the ones that were really interesting was the outcry in the South was not positive. They didn't want us touching the schools. They wanted to leave them as it is. But the teachers had sort of reached out to the division office to say, what can we do? Because we have a lot of combined grades in our in our schools, we have, less chance to collaborate with other teachers. So when you have a combined grade, you can't necessarily work with another grade three teacher because there isn't one. And so we looked at reconfiguration, but the community was very upset about it. And so we actually shut it down and said we won't look further into this at this time. We just weren't ready. Then we've watched our enrollment for the last five years declining every year. And so we decided with the government roll out of possible new schools, the way that you sort of become looked at by the government is how are you spending your dollars wisely? And and what sort of, daily interaction is happening at your schools with children and support workers and tools that we need? And so we asked to do this program where we get a, it's a, a program that comes in and they sort of assess all your school properties, but we chose certain ones. Okay. And so this was because there was some that we had already decided. We had already decided the last capital project that Elm Street School would be something that we would look at closing and building a new school because of just the, the age of the building. So we weren't actually expecting the North to come out where, oh, hey, look, like if we actually look at it at this point of view with three schools that are not at capacity, what we could do if we combined three schools into two schools, what services can change? What can we provide for students to give them the best education? And that is what came out of this. And it was it was a value scoping process that I wasn't expecting, but I understood it once it came to light. When we talk about enrollment, I looked at some numbers that don't come to my mind, but I think it wasn't Southview School. It was almost half of what it was. 137. 5 or 6 years ago. Is that because just older kids, they move out of the school and there's nothing else coming in, and immigration is not filling in behind, and the birth rate isn't filling in behind. I think for South you school, I sort of call it, I'm going to say a frequent flier school. So what used to be, long term residents in that area has turned into, low income housing, new Canadian area. We've got rental properties. We don't have the long term, 25, 30 year neighborhood in that area. And so you'll find that there's a lot of in and outs of that school. And so our numbers have been dropping rapidly. But we also have three schools under five kilometers of just public schools. And I meant like we have actually four because the Catholic has a school in there as well. And they're publicly funded. Yes. So we have four schools basically under four kilometers, all within the grade K to six school. And so I think the volume of of children in that area is just not filling our schools. Some may argue that a smaller school gives a better education. And so if you did have 137 students as opposed to 300 and some that they get more attention and from the teacher, that's sort of the devil's advocate view. Yeah, there's so much misinformation out there about that. And I don't want to say you're wrong, because I can say there is benefit to having a small school for some kids. I think it is widely loved. They love it. If they have a hard time with relationships and a hard time in social settings, this could be the perfect school for them. But the services that we can provide in a smaller school setting do not provide the same. And so with the teacher, if you have your combined grades in at Webster, I'll use Webster as an example. Every school, every class in that school is combined except for one. And so you have your split classes, which some parents love and some parents don't love for, like for a trustee. When we look at that, I don't love it because we have many areas of curriculum going through. So we have kids that have their own style of learning. They all have their maybe their individualized programs. And so it's a lot of work for the teacher to make sure that she's reaching each child in that classroom. Even if it is only 17 children, it's still a lot that she has to to work with to make sure every child is receiving the correct programing for their level. And I think to if you look at the research, I did do my own research on this when we were looking at this, just because this is something I'm taking very seriously, I want to make sure that my decision is accurate and fair. The research shows that your children actually benefit in a larger school. And that's because the, the, the even the friendships that they can form, the variety. I guess there's more of a variety of, of friends, they have supports in the school that aren't being split. And there's a lot of positive things that come out of a school when you have a bigger school. I'll give you an example. When my kids went to Ross Glen, there was over 300 children at Ross Glen, and now our numbers are down in the two hundreds. We had a library and we had a music teacher. And you won't find that in our schools right now. And you'll find that when we have smaller schools, we get less funding to keep them up as well. And so if you have a school at 85% utilization, you'll get full funding to keep that school up and running. If you're under 85%, you actually lose money. So our schools throughout Madison are supporting our smaller schools, which takes away from every other school in the division. When you mentioned the classroom layout at Webster New Block, do we physically have school classrooms that are empty all the time, that still have to be heated? And yes, and yes, and that's had a few schools. I know when we look at moving children and amalgamating schools. So if we look at if if something does close, the children would split between, Crestwood and Roseland School. And in Roseland School there's empty classrooms, like there's room to have children flow into our classes and make them more full and bring the supports into a really full valued school again. And it's not that our schools that are underutilized aren't valued. They absolutely are. Like you said, there's so many benefits to a small school for some children, but we have to think 7000 students. And I think that's what makes it so difficult is if I could think just the 174 or the 137, I would love that. But we have to think 7000 students and we have to think ten years down the road, three years down the road, if we're losing numbers now because our younger grades are coming in smaller. So if we had, you know, 300 kindergarten children and now we have 150, our grades are getting smaller and smaller as we move up. I'm going to play the devil's advocate again. Absolutely. If I have a child at Southfield, they are going to be moved to Crestwood. I might say, well, why don't Crestwood students come to South you. Yes. And we did have a few those questions. Not for that particular area, but for one, we don't have enough room itself. You it is one of our smaller schools. And so that wasn't even an option just because the school itself I is it definitely for full would be under 300. And whereas Crestwood fills a lot more than that. Crestwood though if I recall was built about 1970s. So it's getting a little long in the tooth too. It's probably going to need some some, I guess, remodeling or renovation or even just plain old maintenance. Yeah. And that's sort of another misconception too, that's out there, which I'd like to clarify, because the goal of the value scoping is definitely to hope for a new school one day. The last school we had was the doctor cancel our school in 2017. The goal would be to amalgamate our schools so that we can have that money combined into our schools, and show the government that we are utilizing every classroom that we have in the division. And then instead of looking at our older schools and saying, we'd like them remodeled, the government doesn't love doing that right now because they've learned when you go through the walls of 1960s, 1970s, you're experiencing a lot more debt after and a lot more doors box. That's right. And so they like to build a new school. But I really love the new school concept because it really is. It's really reaching to our our way of 21st century learning. We have spaces in new schools that we didn't have. We have gyms that are properly sized. We have the hubs, which is a gathering place for kids to read or visit or learn. And I think that those are really important spaces in our world today. For all the types of learning and critical thinking that we want our students to do. And when you walk into an older school, you don't necessarily have those spaces. Have you benefited from the experience of your counterparts in the Madison, that Catholic ward where they took three schools, closed them, and now they're building or are building a new school up, by Saint Francis Xavier. So I don't know if I would say benefit. I remember them going through it. I remember there was a lot of, media about that. I would say, they had to make some hard decisions, and they did that. And they have a beautiful school going up a K to nine school actually, in Quezon Heights. Which leads me to be completely transparent with you. It is on my mind because in that same area, we have Webster, which we're going from 174 children down every year. And then you have Vincent Massey under four kilometers away. You have Doctor Ken Sauer school under four kilometers away. And then you're going to have a brand new K-8 and nine Catholic school, right in that same area under four kilometers. So this is definitely something that is on my mind for if the area in the north is not growing, where are all these children going to go to school? And how much money is it costing us to keep all these buildings running at low capacity? If you do decide to close one or both schools, you have another logistics nightmare. Then how are you going to move children from one area to another? They can't really walk. So we look at more bussing. Yes. And so I believe right now our administration team, through our consultation, they felt the consultation was where all the kids going, we are worried about how they're going to get there. Some kids are walking to Webster, some kids are already taking a bus or I drive my child, what am I going to do? This works around my child's, my work schedule with my child's school hours. And so they're working on all of what that could look like to present to us on January 6th. And so on January 6th, we would get the routes that would change the how it would work in that area for what kids would really be designated to go to what schools. And I think, too, when it comes to something like this, we heard a lot. It's very hard for parents to imagine their children having to form new friendships. Will they be going with their friends? Will they be having to go to a school where they don't know anybody? And so I think these are all sorts of questions that even I want to know, because my concern is children are at the forefront of how this is going to impact them. There is a program called the School Construction Accelerator Program from the Alberta government, and it does have money, I guess, to to build new schools. Is this part of that program? Potentially. This is not part of the program, but this was part of the program that that had us reaching to the value scoping program to see if we would be a part of the the school of the area, that maybe we would be chosen to have a new school build. And that's why if you look at our capital plan, it does show that, our first ask would be a brand new build on Crestwood because the land there is is so big and we could keep kids in Crestwood, being educated while we build a new school on that property. And then, our second goal would be Elm Street School. But it's really hard for the government to say, hey, with 77 children, we can't give you a new build. And so that's our second priority. And then our third priority would be Vincent Massey would eventually have a new build on that land as well. Vincent Massey is the larger school between the Webbs. Webster is a smaller school between the two. So that's why it would be Vincent Massey and Doctor Ken, our school. And just a side note, when I became a trustee and Terry Riley was a board chair, I've actually used this a lot the last couple of weeks. There was a time when we were building doctors in our school and he said, you know, we kind of got it all wrong at the time that we got approved for the school in the North, we were looking at the growth. We were having Aurora coming in, and there was supposed to be all these businesses coming in and houses were going to go crazy and families were going to move into the area and it just stopped. And so as much as we love the doctor kids, our school in the North, it's now created that extra area where we're not growing in student numbers. But we have three schools. Yeah. What is the time frame? If a decision is made on the 6th of January that these two schools will be closed, everything happen in the fall or is there a buffer period? So the buffer period would only be to go to the end of the year. And so the children would definitely be, having new schools coming in September of next year. Okay. Parents still have the right to put their children in another school and they're not handcuffed to this. Know this is parent choice. We believe that in our division. I strongly believe in parent choice. My own children got to choose. I well, I helped choose their school, but I sent my children to Glen school when we lived on the Hill. And part of the reason was Brian was because Central Park had had closed and it changed over to the Francophone school. Now it's torn down. But that was the school that I wanted my children to go to because I had gone there, my siblings had gone there and it was my neighborhood school, and we lived there. And then my next choice for them was to drive them to River Heights or put them on a bus. And, and I just really felt like maybe one day I'd be living in the area where Ross Glen was, and Rick Mazzini was the principal there, and my brother in law was teaching there. And I just felt the connection piece for me was, if I couldn't have the connection with Central Park, I'd have it with Ross Glen. And so my kids did do their education K to six at Ross Glen, and I drove them every day. You know. What was the temperature in the room like when you, had the public hearings for the two different schools over two different nights? You know, parents are very upset. It was difficult. You know, it's hard being the chair and the focus is on you because you are the spokesperson for the board, and you're approaching tables and you're trying to have a conversation. And and they are scared and they are hurt, and they also don't know what's happening and they don't have enough information. I said, you know, this has been a conversation that's been going on for many years as long as I've been a trustee. But because you don't have media in your your meetings and people are not in the gallery, they don't hear the conversations that are happening. And this has been an ongoing conversation of what are we going to do to our schools that are not utilized, that capacity. And so this has been discussed for many years, and we're at a time now where I think, because of the accelerated program, is what made us jump on to the value scoping, which made us then get the results. And $38,000 went into the value scoping. Now, we did not spend that. The government paid for it, thank goodness. But it's a lot of money that you invest to say, how can we be better at what we're doing for students? Okay, the choice that you have to make is not going to be an easy one. And we were talking before, if we were looking at closing school named after your father, that would be a heartstring issue to. So you fully understand what's involved here. Oh, it's very emotional. And I think that's probably when I've had conversations with families, and I've had some really beautiful conversations where the conversation started off very cold and distant and became warm, because I really do empathize with the struggles that they're feeling. And I can't imagine if I was outside right now listening to this discussion happening with the Roy Wilson Learning Center. And so I do understand the attached points and I understand the emotional connection. Yeah, it is not an easy decision. The board will meet January the 6th, 2026 at a special time. Yes. We have announced we're meeting at 2 p.m.. We are receiving all the information from the consultations that afternoon, and then we will be receiving all the, change in transportation, you know, where will our students attend? What does that look like going forward? And then what does it look like not going forward? And then we will make a decision. And so we are prepared to be there for a long time as we get all our information and make sure that we make the right choice for everyone. I know there's one other question that people are probably wanting me to ask. What happens to the buildings if they do decide to leave them? That's a great question. So as far as I know, for for the new change in government, they own buildings that are after, I believe, 1980s. So, so few actually would be turned back to the government for them to choose what would happen to the land and the building. But Webster would belong to our school division, and so that would be something that would be looked at after if we decide like, what would we do? Honestly? And when I say this to people, I mean it. I haven't even thought about what we would do with the building, because I haven't made my decision on what the building is, what's happening with the building. So I really believe the data's going to speak what's what's going to help us move our decision in to whatever direction we have to go. It is a tough decision that you and the board have to make, and I thank you for your time. Thank you for having me.